It was assumed that Stargardt's disease was the best fit for her symptoms, but she has no family history for this genetic condition. Even if we couldn't explain it, we'd say "this is interesting, maybe we should look into these effects more" -- this is what we do for any other proposed medical treatments when we have only two case studies to go on. Her blindness, too, had been instantaneously healed. Barbara (Burns) Snyder, age 92, of Elmira, NY, passed away Friday, November 18, 2022 at her home. partnerships that have drawn national acclaim. It's not impossible under theism, but it is an odd omission and speaks to God's motivation. perhaps a thickening of the intestine would look like a regrowth? I doubt Keener has tried to actually get this done beyond the anecdotal level. She It's not biased to be skeptical. Now, I know you can read headlines so you know this was a study of proximal intercessory prayer, but the point is even if you assess the details of the study divorced from knowledge of what the intervention is, it should be obvious that this study tells us nothing. On this episode, she lays out the case for investing more in academic research, and what we may lose if we don't. Subscribe to Big Brains on Apple Podcasts , Stitcher and Spotify. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. He had asthma all his life. Healings, casting out spirits, nature miracles in Mark and so on. Get the news that matters most delivered directly to your inbox. Is he thinking (a strawman of) 100% of the time? "So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, 'Go find my parents' [and] jumps out of bed.". It's been shown that there is a high survival rate for patients with their heart rhythm responds to shocks. achievements during Snyders tenure include: Association of American Universities (AAU), Maltz Center donors, performers celebrate Phase II, School of Medicine graduate program information tabling event, Summer study abroad with CWRU faculty information session, New study reveals ketamine could be effective treatment for cocaine-use disorders, Get to know members of the National Pan-Hellenic Council at CWRU: Week 3, Begun with a $1 billion goal, it ultimately raised. A legal scholar, Snyder was the first woman to serve as the Case Western's president. We know exactly how skeletal muscle tissue is developed, and it takes weeks to months. In my discussion with Jonathan McLatchie on the Still Unbelievable podcast, I said that there hasnt been a verified miracle claim even since Humes essay on miracles. 2023 Blaze Media LLC. It makes it very hard to investigate these claims because you have to spend so much time trying to work out what is actually established. The maternal mortality rate in childbirth is so much higher there. At any given time some member of the family was deathly sick from malaria or typhoid or something else. To learn about us and today's guest, Dr. Craig Keener and to find more episodes, go to biola.edu/thinkbiblically. What would happen if two people out in space a few meters apart, abandoned by their spacecraft, decided to wait until gravity pulled them together? He already was on disability for this. The latter has more eyewitness testimony than we have for Barbara Snyder. #religion. Scott Rae: I'd say that's quite a footnote! My initial thought was that , A physics problem from a practice AP test came to my attention, when my daughter was in AP physics this past spring. This article wasoriginally published on Pure Flix Insider. If you want to, for our listeners, if you want to read a little bit more about it Craig's written a fairly lengthy book on the whole, the whole narrative of that called Impossible Love. The good news will be preached to the poor. I mean I, at the beginning I was expecting to find some reports of different kinds of healings that had already been collected in the booked. "Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. It was a prospective, randomized, double-blinded, controlled study of four hundred subjects. Is it possible to start by eliminating the theistic hypothesis? And so I guess my first question is, what motivated you to undertake that because your field has been pretty technical New Testament studies. The theists seem unwilling to do the work and want a pass anyway. Adapted from Editorial Theme html5up.net | @ajlkn, I cook breakfast sandwich and lunch sandwichs I'm also a cashier. Yeah ,that's what Ii just asked you about! Well I shouldn't say everybody, but lots of people have love stories. well; Barbara is a perfect fit.. He encountered scores of healings and other claims of the miraculous along the way, but there was one case in particular that truly blew his mind: the case of Barbara Snyder. That is their foretaste of God's future promise to us when there's going to be no more sorrow, there's gonna be no more pain. So, we know that at least 450 Christians began praying for her, because they wrote letters saying, 'We're praying for you.. The analogy doesn't work, and honestly I think this is a miracle talking-point that Elijah is misusing here. You can received notifications daily or weekly. it can be also given as a nice gift to your friends, relatives, boyfriend or girlfriend. Finally, this gripe about a naturalistic bias is completely misguided. That's a gift from God." The response is, essentially, that I am demanding too much evidence. Of course, it's possible her sight was perfect and declined in the 2 years between the "healing" and the measurement which would call into question the miraculous nature. A particular response has now happened twice in an ongoing discussion about extraordinary claims, and I felt I needed to think about it more deeply. into our next chapter, said McRobbie, who is also the president of Indiana Now you got to go work! University. He doesn't seem to understand the ways that people can fool themselves. Nine out of ten with prayer is the meaning of replicable, so I don't know what he really is thinking when he says miracles are not replicable. Scott Rae: Here, here. "But my skepticism didn't go away.". All rights reserved. To contact us or to submit an article, click here. And sometimes, well it's wonderful when God does it and when he doesn't we still know that we have that hope. To this day.. Studies of distant intercessory prayer have been essentially negative we see the typical random scatter of results expected of an ineffective treatment, with no consistent pattern of positive results, and with the best studies being negative. So I asked Antoinette Malumbay, "How long was it that Terese wasn't breathing?" perhaps a misdiagnosis of Stargardt's disease, and a gradual improvement for other reasons. They want the positive results and the authority that comes from the scientific enterprise, yet they aren't willing to put in the real work to earn that authority. the natural explanation -- some natural healing plus the imaging being unreliable, the secondary measurement said "approximately 6 feet" as opposed to 3ft, so the "approximately" is doing a lot of work, perhaps under extreme damage there is more healing, but we haven't seen this in other cases because of the rarity of the effect. I was talking with Antoinette Malumbay with my wife translating for me 'cause my wife knew the story only second hand herself. I confess I haven't made it through all 1000 pages. Elijah: I also think we in the west have a bias toward poor people as not having knowledge of when something's dead or an arm is broken or something of that nature and so I think when people put themselves in situations where they pray for the sick and a whole village knows this child was born blind from birth they're 15 years old and that person sees gets their sight back and this is a different religion and that village testifies he was blind now, he sees that is a different scenario than we're talking about here and the lens of science really can't speak to that. Christian epistemologist, software engineer, musician, not necessarily in that order. I'm just wondering, is it possible to do it the other way around? Also, while we have been generally optimistic that these miracle claims are not the result of deliberate fraud, one does have to consider that as a real possibility and find ways to rule it out. And, in fact, one doctor described her as being one of the most hopelessly ill patients he'd ever encountered.". We have to have miracles. There was no medical help available in the village so she strapped the child to her back and ran to a nearby village where family friend [inaudible] was doing ministry. Why not? I don't think "I don't know" should be your default position unless that's really where you fall and so what I encourage people to do is read all sides, make an inference to the best explanation and go "this is what i think is most likely the case". Certainly months in the case of severe atrophy over the course of years. I think we can. Scott Rae: Tell me first, one of the books I'd like to talk about first is the book Impossible Love. Indianapolis, Indiana. Share it with a friend. Why don't we just simply believe. In this case, Shermer's argument is that there is a context (e.g. And she'd also gone blind. There were plenty of other stories just like it, too. We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. The first step -- which the theists have not achieved -- is to just demonstrate that there is a real effect to be investigated. Try comparing these claims to, say, the difficulty in confirming the Higgs boson, gravity waves, black holes, or the accelerating universe. The answer is simple none. In my opinion this study represents a larger trend that I have discussed before clinical research going backwards in quality after higher quality studies yield negative results. Some were tested in prosperity. Each of these is far harder than the rather trivial challenges to testing miracle claims. It is a notable pattern for something to become less observable to more carefully you're able to observe it. In principle I believed it, but I was questioning witnesses with kind of a skeptical approach to try to whittle away anything that wasn't necessarily accurate. Sometimes we don't even get healing in this physical body in this life, but when it happens to any of us it's a reminder to all of us of God's plans for us. I mean there are, there's lots of Kingdom fortes that we're experiencing now. fall transition to the AAU will depend on the progress of the search process. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. He wasn't praying for healing of his physical vision, but when the Lord healed his mind, he opened his eyes and he could see. James: can we just make it a thing to always mention that like although it's not that popular these days that deism or non-interventionist form of theism are a thing like you can totally believe in god and still not be okay with miracles? Barbara Snyder (Barbara Cummiskey Snyder) healed from multiple sclerosis. A gymnast back in high school, Barbara hadn't walked in seven years. Barbara Snyder was diagnosed at the Mayo Clinic with multiple sclerosis. The conventional wisdom that we hear kind of over and over again is that the prevalence of miraculous activity, is much more the developing world than it is in the west. And he said because these precious people that never had a chance to be exposed to God's extravagant love, He works in extravagant ways to let them know. If there's that many cases there should be enough regularity to detect these things statistically which is exactly the tools we've developed in science to do and to rule out other factors. Scott Rae: Right. She was miraculously healed. This is where they burn child witches," and stuff like that. At over 2 billion Christians, praying many times, if this was a real effect at the 1% level we'd expect millions of documented cases yearly -- certainly a large enough signal to experimentally verify. unblinded) studies were better. Or even the most dramatic story I found from somebody that I or my wife knows, but this one was particularly mind blowing to me because Antoinette Malumbay was my mother-in-law and Terese is my sister-in-law. If this is the Marolyn Ford case, which I think it is, then we have to consider that she worked in a church for that amount of time, and obviously got prayed for many times with no effect, and only got the healing after many years. Millions of unique designs by independent artists. What do atheists think of Barbara Snyder, who was healed of all her symptoms and all her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy? And you just Well that was one of the reasons people argued against their reliability. We can see the stories changing in the telling, being simplified, critical details dropped. Synder's miraculous healing , which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical . And the reason Usually people don't get medical documentation even when it's available. But there are other cases were the person had been dead for eight hours. They dont want you to see this Big Tech does its best to limit what news you see. Previously, she has served as chair of the board of directors of the American Council on Education, chair of the board of directors at the Business-Higher Education Forum, vice chair of the board of trustees of Internet2, a member of the board of directors of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, a member of the board of directors of Jobs Ohio, a trustee ofUniversity Circle Inc., and a member of the Ohio Business Roundtable. It would seem that these people are constantly dealing with skeptics, and the easiest way to address it would be to get the pre- and post- medical test data rather than a summary by one doctor, after the fact. The one-on-one treatments, when they show an effect, are confounded by the more intense experience, the one-on-one attention, the group pressures, etc You are adding a lot of psychological elements which make it harder to establish causation. Case Western Reserves Board of Trustees She has extensive experience in reinforcing Case Western Reserves in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. maybe we can study this" That's how a lot of science is done, it starts with "oh wow, that's weird" and then we can go and start testing it but theists don't seem to even want to take that next step. They're meant to be signs of the Kingdom. "To this day.". After all the investigations and scrutiny of the numerous claims, not one single credible and fully verified healing by God or any other non-existent deity . I use some basic principles. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. Look, I have male pattern balding. The university has retained Spencer Stuart to assist in this search. Jonathan McLatchie vs Jonathan Pearce, documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search, this woman was healed of Parkinson's with "Energy Healing". She's had no recurrence. However, after analyzing several miracles Strobel is convinced they are. It's in American History, which is not, well there's a lot of Americans who can teach American History, so she especially teaches French. Strobel said. She was born on April 10, 1930 in Beverly, MA, a daughter of John A. and Irene (Walsh) Burns. Synder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. This one actually is, I think this one is not in the book because I came across this afterwards. "It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago," Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and "The Billy Hallowell Podcast." Nathan: it's like he understands broadly what he should be doing but then that stands in place of him actually doing it it's like as if just finally having a bit of a grasp of how we should reason about the these things.suppose we agree with you now well why is that the best explanation? And Coco [inaudible] prayed and Terese started breathing again and the next day she was fine. It completely defies what is possible by any naturalistic means. And remember Think Biblically about everything. I think a lot of times people will see something as a miracle because we're inclined to believe in miracles, you can also have confirmation bias to say I'm inclined not to see this as a miracle because I just don't think those things happen. Bizarrely, her calves were inflated and her once-atrophied muscles worked again and thats not all. placebo, memory contamination, fraud, spontaneous remission, etc) that will confound the effect so scientists have set up steps (e.g. This is incredibly compelling stuff. So tell our listeners some of the stories that you uncovered as a result of your research. In some of these cases, I'm expecting evidence that should be there if the claim is true. But you in the west, you have this wonderful medical technology. Even the supplementary information doesn't rule this out, where they have some reports in the 16 years but don't say they've been attempting oral feedings. She graduated from the University of Chicago School of Law, where she served as executive editor of the law review. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. The first doctor report is two years after the event (the event in 1972, the doctor visit in 1074)? There's a long list of reasons for this poorly understood condition. Yes, I'll look for these mundane explanations first before jumping to agency, because those are the most common explanations of extraordinary claims. None of these steps are taken in any of these cases. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. But I'm grateful for the, the engagement that's come since then because there has been a lot of good engagement and people have taken it seriously and taken to heart some of the arguments in it. The Mayo Clinic had diagnosed Barbara with multiple sclerosis. Kamil makes the interesting point that the testimonies of different religions only reflect what that particular religion has as a theological component. Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. You can get a free, one-month trialhere. If someone says a treatment works, even at the 1% level, it is tested carefully to see if it works -- especially if there are no obvious side effects. Adding to that, he had some skepticism about some of the charlatans who have been exposed for making false claims about healings and the like. Craig Keener: Yeah, and by the time Yeah and eventually it was over a 1000. James: I'm not a fan of eliminating explanations because i think that that's almost impossible because you can always augment the hypothesis with further details, so the issue is going to be one of comparative plausibility and explanatory scope. I wrote about some of these cases in another post and I've written about miracles many times. This is special pleading -- wanting to hold their claims to a lower standard than other claims. Knowledge falls on a continuum. Click here to subscribe to the Charisma News newsletter. She actually had to have a breathing tube because even her diaphragm didn't work on its own. This would certainly be testable. I commented on the story here but there is very little to go on. That said, before writing The Case for Miracles, Strobel was "ambivalent" about whether these miracles still happen today. or perhaps it resolved in 2 years, and they never checked for a long time, only checking right after the prayer 16 years later. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. I want our listeners to be totally aware, Craig Keener, just the two volume entitled Miracles. READ ALSO: Are the Biblical End Times Upon Us? Scott Rae: Sounds like an amazing story. At this point anyone with any reasonable familiarity with how to assess the quality of medical studies should see that this is a worthless study. But it's a wonderful volume. "It got to the point where she was dying. What problems are you interested in? The protocol also calls for multiple interventions if initial treatments are not effective essentially the subjects receive repeat treatments as long as possible until they report a response. University (CWRU) in July 2007, will join the Association of American Universities (AAU) by the Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement. Some were tested in persecution. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. He didn't see any fire so people are getting [inaudible] what's this about? Barbara Rook "Babs" Snyder is an American academic and president of the Association of American Universities. Brian: Essentially Shermer's complaint about prayer being done and nothing happening is part what you would have in any kind of controlled study because you would have the case looking at all prayer events and which ones had effects and which ones didn't, that's the basic thing they seem unable to even grasp that idea and it shows a certain unwillingness to actually try to find the truth and to rule out these actual alternatives. Now we move on to a video with Sean McDowell interviewing Craig Keener called Latest Evidence for Modern Miracles. So Craig thanks so much for being with us. Without further data, it is impossible to rule out these things, but you'd think the data would be available with something this recent? Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. The opportunity to serve as Case Scott Rae: Yeah. We know better now, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify a particular claim. Meanwhile, her muscles were atrophied. Visit Pure Flix for access to thousands of faith and family friendly movies and TV shows. And it's all very well documented too. Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. Just to have the words "inference to the best explanation" that legitimizes the inference that you're making rather than actually being able to use inference to the best explanation. And we give Glory to God whenever we get the opportunity to be a part of those, but it's, we don't expect that, that the Kingdom, that we'll have experienced the Kingdom in its fullest now. #media. After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. Never miss a big news story again. Keener: what is specific about that data that suggests it isn't just a fluke you know one of those one in a million things that just happens sometimes yeah anomalies occur so it's important to look for an accumulation of anomalies so you don't just have what could be a coincidence. The story is of a person who was paralyzed from the waist down due to a car accident and 22 years later they were prayed for and healed. Someone in the chat asked "do all of Keener's cases differ as much from what actually was reported to what was reported by him?" Craig Keener: In Matthew 11 and Luke Chapter 7, John the Baptist sends to Jesus because he hears the works of Jesus, he hears of these healings taking place and he says, "Are you the one the come or shall we wait for somebody else?" It's still healing. She's on her deathbed," Strobel explained. Just, was it last night I think, we were talking and David Dockery was sharing about Grant Osbourne, a scholar friend of ours who passed away just this past month after an amazing career of scholarship, but when he was young he had asthma. Caleb was very nice in pointing out the documentation for the Barbara Snyder case, and correcting me in its reading. We don't get to choose what our test is. Well, yeah but could we be a bit more specific? Craig Keener: In Christian circles it's been received really, really well. Nathan: I think what we're seeing here are the fruits of apologetics in some ways. In response, Snyder said, "I am proud to be president of Case Western Reserve and intend to continue in this role for many years to come. Do extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence? There isn't anything that could tie the prayer as the causal element, given that she was most likely prayed for often an we're picking out the one case before a claimed recovery. The character played by Hilary Swank in the 2007 movie The Reaping was based partially on my work as a miracle detective. This one is obviously ludicrous, but I think undermines the theists claims quite a lot. He became a Christian in 1981 shortly after he decided to investigate Jesus . In 1972, having been blind for over 12 years, the individual reportedly regained her vision instantaneously after receiving proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP). This doesn't affect the doctor reports, but the personal reports. Then he was prayed for and was instantly healed, could eat, and have his tubes removed. In fact, history is full of bizarre coincidences that get downright creepy . I've read some of the first volume. It really doesnt matter what the treatment is or how plausible it is you simply cannot draw any meaningful conclusion from 24 self-selected subjects with no controls and no blinding. Now obviously those numbers, none of us would say that all of those can only be explained as a miracle. an 18-year-old female lost the majority of her central vision over the course of three months in 1959 and was later diagnosed with juvenile macular degeneration (JMD). I mean I can explain theologically the already not yet of the Kingdom why it doesn't happen to everybody, but why this one and not that one? Further, the world is complex and any given effect can have many different possible causes, especially if we are talking about biological systems. We don't know the timeline at all or the specifics, or any actual measurements. God can heal us through exercise or just the things he's placed in our body. These are two red flags which will need some level of caution in establishing the cause of the condition improving. Craig Keener: Well if you ask me what motivated me to write a 1000 page book on miracles I could say nothing because I wasn't planning to do it initially, but it was certainly one of the most enjoyable projects I've worked on. Here are two examples from my life where I was skeptical of an extraordinary claim, one where it turned out my perspective was correct and the other not. He ended up reading and it led him into a life of scholarship. It is quite clear that once you allow one miraculous healing in, using evidence of just one person, then one has to let in a whole host of others. Barbara Snyder's healing from MS shocked doctors. Her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn around. An immediate thought is how many times was he prayed over and nothing happened? The story is that the Dr Sean George had a heart attack, a thousand chest compressions, many electric shocks, went on for an hour and half -- Keener says 5 minutes without oxygen, flat line for an hour and a half. The situation was pretty hopelessuntil something quite shocking happened. The way people like the stories highlights their way of thinking and provides a teachable moment about like why don't we trust claims just from the claims, even if it has a peer-reviewed journal article. (Read also:Are the Biblical End Times upon us? It's a long story. Author and evangelist Lee Strobel was once an atheist who served as the legal affairs editor for the Chicago Tribune before embarking on a quest to try and disprove Christianity an effort that ironically led him to embrace faith. As she listened, she said that she heard a male voice coming from the corner of the rooma voice she now believes was God. 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